Not of sin, though. Recently I had a discussion with a couple of close friends, a married couple, that inspired this post. The conversation went something like this:
Me: "When I first joined the Catholic Church, I knew very little about the Orthodox Church."
Mr. H. and Mrs. H.*: "We didn't either."
Me: "I've been looking at the Orthodox Church lately, and I gotta tell you, both Churches seem to make equally good claims to being the True Church."
Mr H. immediately responded with some Catholic apologetics, which rather irritated me. They, as stated above, are converts to the Church too. (In fact, I'll tell you, not their story, but the story of how we lost contact with each other and found each other again. That'll be the next post.) As a result, all three of us are serious about the faith, which is why Mr. H. responded the way he did.
Mrs. H. was more gracious--
Mrs. H.: "Are you thinking about converting to the Orthodox?"
Me: "No. Not right now."
Mrs. H. (a little worried): "Would you convert?"
Me: "If I thought it was the True Church, absolutely!"
I'm in a very uncomfortabel position. I cannot make up my mind over which is the True Church. On the positive side of things, this has really energized my prayers for unity! Oh that the Eastern and Western Churches were in full communion with each other! At my current level of understanding, the Catholic Church (CC) has the greatest claim, but the Orthodox Church (OC) comes in at a close, a very close, second. One of the two biggest "issues" I have with the OC is its refusal to acknowledge doctrinal developement. It is very obvious from Church History that doctrine did develope (e.g. the Trinity, Christ's natures, etc.).
The biggest "issue" I have with Orthodoxy is pretty much the same issue I have with Evangelicalism: authority. While still a Protestant, the complete lack of objective authority within Protestantism and its off-shoots convinced me that Protestantism is wrong. Its logical conclusion sets me up as my own little infallible authority while only giving lip-service to the fact that I might be wrong about any given doctrine(s). Orthodoxy does not fall prey to a complete lack of authority, yet I see its authority lacking. As a Protestant looking for truth, the fact that many modern Protestant beliefs contradict matters settled by early Councils struck me as really, really wrong (I hate using that word so much, but it fits). I started learning about Church Councils and could not believe that there's still a Church in existence today that holds Councils! The most recent one ended in the '60s! I'm unsure as to the OC's reasoning as to why it no longer has Ecumenical Councils, but if someone who knows the answer to that reads this blog, I'd very much appreciate it if he or she would provide me with that answer!
As I struggle through this issue, pray with me for unity. Pray for me to know the truth!
And in the meantime, here's one of my favorite Orthodox blogs: Into the Light.
*This is not what I call them. I use the initial here to conceal their identity.
13 comments:
Woodrow,
I saw your comment left on my blog (Into the Light) yesterday. Looks like you think similarly to me, as I had many of the same "issues" with Orthodoxy at one point. I'd like to discuss some of these things with you as time permits.
Have you ever read any works by Sergius Bulgakov? My issues with "authority" fell away rather quickly as I began to understand that I was looking for an authority that was completely foreign to the Orthodox mind (and now, I believe, foreign to the Bible and Apostolic mind, as well). Bulgakov's book, The Orthodox Church, begins with several profound chapters on the Church, the hierarchy and authority, tradition and authority, etc. He interacts with the Latin perspective on authority. I'll send you more things and share my own thoughts when I have time.
through the prayers of our holy Fathers,
Kevin Thomas
Kevin,
Thanks for responding. I've read only a few things from an Orthodox perspective: a few articles by Frederica Mathewes-Green, her book The Illumined Heart, Father Thomas Hopko's Christian Faith and Same-Sex Attraction, and I recently bought the Orthodox Study Bible (and it has revolutionized the way I read the Psalms!).
I'll make it a priority to get a copy of Bulgakov's book from the library. Looking forward to your thoughts and further suggestions.
Woodrow,
I'd also recommend ANYthing you can get your hands on by Fr. Georges Florovsky, one of the more important Orthodox theologians of recent memory.
Many of his writings are available through the Wikipedia entry for his name, and also at JD Burnett's page, "Topics in Theology":
http://jbburnett.com/theology/theol-00.html
Especially look at his essays under the section on the Church. You might also be interested in Evdokimov's "The Struggle with God" (under the "Practice of Faith" section).
happy reading! Will talk more later...
Kevin Thomas
Excellent books:
Mountain of Silence, Kyriacos Markides
Journey Back to Eden, Father Mark Gruber
I'm Orthodox, but I hope that by the time you're ready to convert, Catholic and Orthodox will have overcome the 'heresy' of disunity!
WOODROW?!?
Uh, OK, so if the authority issue is settled for you in Rome, what’s so attractive about Orthodoxy? When I fled the Anglican Disunion two years ago, coming home to Rome was natural for me, while my closest Anglican friend became (Greek) Orthodox. I was glad he was part of the Apostolic Church, but his arguments for choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism were unconvincing. The only things he could point to were the Roman clergy scandal and the liturgical purity of the East. But the Roman clergy scandal does not prove Orthodoxy right (pace Rod Dreher), and while there is a more ancient liturgy practiced in Orthodoxy, it is less unified. And you can get that in Eastern-Rite Catholicism if you’d like. There’s probably a bunch of ERC parishes in your part of the country; I’d probably go to one, but we don’t have that in the Podunk South.
In the end, for me, Orthodoxy was just Protestantism with a longer half-life. Stick with Peter. OK, I’m going to get royally flamed by the EOC commentators now, but it is what it is.
Are you still taking that pre-Boston trip you were talking about? I’m a little confused in light of the above. Have I said too much?
Looking forward to meeting you in Boston so I can hug your neck, then kick your butt. :-)
Everyone, thanks for commenting. I am going to read the books and websites suggested. So that everyone understands where I'm at right now, I am learning about Orthodox beliefs but am nowhere near converting. I need to learn a great deal more about both the RC and the OC. I won't rush in to anything.
The trip Mephobosheth referred to: I'm hoping to enter a religious order. In August I'll be going to the Courage conference in Boston. En route I'll be staying for a few days with the Order I'm seriously considering joining. It is Roman Catholic.
Orthodoxy is not Protestantism with a longer half life. I'm not sure what an EOC commenter could say that would qualify as "flaming" if the above does not, but the above description is just not very nuanced, nor careful, nor fraternal.
One does not become Orthodox because of the Roman scandals (or at least shouldn't). One becomes Orthodox because they believe she is the Church of Jesus Christ. I have spent years in both RC and EOC, and found much greater unity, and discipleship that rang more true, in the EOC than the RC. However, it is not an easy decision to make. Both Churches can make good arguments. In the end, I found the EOC arguments much more in line with the patristic corpus, but each person must come to their own decision through prayer and worship.
Best wishes. Feel free to contact me if you want to discuss further. I hate to inundate you with reading material when you are discerning a call to a religious order.
in Christ
Kevin Thomas
"Where Peter is, there is the Church" St Ambrose
http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp
here
Kevin,
My comments were made in haste, and were therefore not nuanced or careful. I apologize. I can only plead that the statement "for me," as well as my favorable comments about my friend's conversion to Orthodoxy, express my fraternal spirit toward all Orthodox.
Of course no one should convert to one tradition because of the sins of another. But it's hard not to conclude that many did so in the wake of the scandal. I know quite a few RCs who fled to Orthodoxy or Evangelicalism (my parents in the latter category). I also know some Evangelicals, in search of the Apostolic Church, who chose Orthodoxy not because they were persuaded that it was the Church, but that Catholicism couldn't be. As you rightly point out, such decisions are best made from within--that is, within the heart in much prayer, and within the worship and tradition of the Church itself.
As I mentioned, as a son of the Church, it was natural for me to return to Rome when I began to hunger for the Apostolic Church and her Eucharist. And I truly rejoiced that my friend found those things in Orthodoxy. As I have studied more of the Church's doctrine, I have only become further convinced that the marks of the Church--One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic--are best revealed in the Church in union with the successor of Peter. But I have no less love for my Orthodox brothers and sisters, and no less desire that the Church "breathe with both lungs" as our late Holy Father stated.
And Woodrow knows my fondness for him, and my tendency toward lighthearted banter, and as indicated, my natural confusion about things given his discerning a call to consecrated life (within the RCC at this point).
Grace and peace to all. And Woodrow, I really am looking forward to seeing you next week!
Frank
Louise, how did you get a link to another web site in a comment? I've never been able to figure that out.
Sorry, didn't see this reply until just now. You type in:
[a href="http://yoururl.com/"]your words[/a]
with the usual <> for [].
substitute <> for [ ]
(in case that wasn't obvious above)
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